Art Games: Here We Go Again Indeed

I don't know what's up with this month. March seems to be the month of debating the "are games art" question. I almost feel like we're starting to beat this one to the ground, even though nobody's really gotten to an answer that satisfies.

I say this, because in all of the shuffle in the blogosphere about art games recently I seem to have missed that even Gamasutra featured an article trying to get to the core of the issue. Bryan Ochalla wrote the cover feature Are Games Art? (Here We Go Again...). Unlike other posts that we've seen recently, this article asks a number of prominent industry professionals of their position on the topic. I was happy to see that Santiago Siri was also included.

The initial results are that "unsurprisingly, the answer among game developers is a resounding 'yes.'” But when it comes to finding a more concrete answer as to why games are art, or what constitutes a game as art, things went in several different directions. Each person quoted in the article has a more or less different understanding of what makes a game art. Or, perhaps more to the point, what makes anything art.

According to Tim Schafer, "art is about creatively expressing thoughts or emotions that are hard or impossible to communicate through literal, verbal means." On the other hand, Rod Humble says that "art is that which can make at least one person a better human being." Differently still, Michael Samyn quotes an unnamed artist who proposes that art is “objects or situations that provoke cultural discussion," in this post.

Realizing that everyone seems to have a different idea of what art is, Samyn makes a good point: "Contemporary artists can simply make up any definition for the word art that suits them. So the question whether or not something belongs in a category that anybody can redefine whenever they see fit, seems absurd."

It all really just brings us back to where we started. Somebody asks, "are games art?" One side cheers "yes!" Then the other side scorns "no!" They give each other menacing glances and go their separate ways, mumbling under their breaths. After all of that it seems like, just maybe, we're facing a problem of tolerance and open-mindedness (or lack thereof).

In the end, arguments of inclusions and exclusions eventually just feel to be devoid of substance. Which makes me wonder if we need to accept the relativism of our situation and allow for broader definitions. Assuming, of course, that definitions are even appropriate at this point on account of their exclusive nature.


Art Games: Drama Games


During a presentation at this year's Serious Games Summit in San Francisco, Santiago Siri unveiled a powerful new tool set. Based on his ideas of interactive storytelling, Siri has created some fantastic software, though still in the prototype phase, which is intended to make the experience more realistic and dynamic.


The Utopia tool set, now renamed Playdreamer, consists of four parts which are used together to create interactive stories. However, due to some of the old associations with the term "interactive story," Siri is now using Patrick Dugan's term "drama games." This is also due in part to the word "drama" implying the idea of "art." Thus, the new drama games may also fall under the term art games.

A video of the SGS presentation is available here. What's more, Playdreamer is a free open source project, the prototype version of which is already available at its site. The availability of this, which is intended to be easy to use for anyone, is bound to bring us some very interesting media. And that's exciting.

To quote Rod Humble from a recent comment, I too believe that "what is really pleasant is the springing up of people around the world who are interested in making a new art form unique to games. I believe we are entering a wonderful time."


Art Games: The Buzz Continues


Before Joystiq picked up on Rod Humble's The Marriage, Indygamer, Arthouse Games, and TIGSource had it already blogged (not to mention that I did too). You might say the game caused a significant buzz. Now we're seeing additional discussion on art games pop up in other places.

A few days ago Tales of Tales delved deeper into the notion of art games by again asking that fundamental question of "are games Art?" The post tries to look at the larger issue of what art actually is, to see if games can fit in this category. To this end Michael Samyn makes the following statement.

Game developers, perhaps as a result of limited art education, seem to think of art as something that expresses an idea or an emotion. This is a concept from the nineteenth century that has long been abandoned by contemporary art.

This is not entirely correct, as the abstract expressionists in the mid twentieth century created art as an expression of emotion. Furthermore, though some movements in modern art have indeed abandoned expression of ideas and emotions, they do not comprise the resulting totality of what is contemporary art. Many contemporary artists still create as a means of expressing those things. We can not simply assume, because an elite group of individuals who create art have made rules for its creation, that all those who create art will by default abide by these rules.

Personally, I do not enjoy narrow definitions of art. I won't be giving you mine, as I am not sure that I can summarize it in just a few words, but I can give you Rod Humble's definition. On the same day that Tales of Tales posted the above mentioned piece, Arthouse Games conducted an interview with Humble. Though its primary focus was The Marriage, the question of what is art did emerge towards the end.

JR: Can you give us a one-sentence definition of art? In other words, how do you differentiate works of entertainment from works of art?

RH: Entertainment is giving enjoyment to the maximum number of people you can. Art is that which can make at least one person a better human being. Long may they both prosper.

I too prefer a broader definition of art. The elitism enjoyed by artistic communities which never seems to dissipate reminds me of seventeenth century France (among other periods). A time when art had to abide by the royalty's canon. In light of my own education and endeavors, I think that definitions of art unduly emphasize the result over the process. But that is another long discussion which I will save for another time.


Standing by my conviction that games are art, I leave you with a few additional examples. Thanks again to Indygamer, I found a piece called Soup 09 (image at top) from a Japanese dev's site who's name I can't seem to figure out on there. He has also created some of the most interesting and beautiful shooters made with Game Maker I have yet seen, which include Boidtrancer (image above) and Wisplisp++.


Exposed: TheHate's Video Game Debut


It would appear that TheHate quietly debuted in her role as Pocky in Natsume's Pocky & Rocky (1993). I know! It came as a shock to me―that she has kept this secret from us for so long―but I tell you now, TheHate, you have been found out! I mean come on. Just look at that face. I know it's you, don't deny it.

Undoubtedly you thought that no one would suspect as long as you hid behind your 16-bit chibi facade. I'm afraid you thought wrong. Just go look at some of the additional evidence from SydLexia. Which begs the question, just how many other leading, supporting, minor roles and cameos of TheHate have we missed? Friends, do not be afraid to expose her past deeds. The truth shall set you free!


Classic Metroid Action Returns


Aliento just released a fan game named Metroid: Bounty on 64 Digits. This initial release is the result of three years of work, and it shows! The sprites are beautifully done, the levels well designed, gameplay is solid, and it has great particle effects on top of it all.


Admittedly, the game is relatively short, allowing you to beat it within about 30 to 60 minutes or so. A few small glitches and bugs crop up here and there, but nothing that spoils the fun of this game. I enjoyed the experience thoroughly, and I think any Metroid fan should give this a try. Keep in mind that this was created by a single individual. I think you'll be impressed.


In terms of mechanics and gameplay, Aliento got very close to the Super Metroid feel while adding the unique feature of mouse aiming (reminiscent of Abuse). I found the game to be very well polished, with plenty of items to collect and traditional techniques making an appearance. There are also a few items and features not present in the official games. Here are some of the highlights...

  • A detailed map system.
  • Unique, upgradeable beam weapons.
  • Beautiful detailed particle effects, 3-D effects, and sprites.
  • Lock-on targeting system.
  • Mouse-controlled aiming.
  • Super Metroid style Scan Visor.
You can get Metroid: Bounty from its 64 Digits page here. Don't miss out on yet another quality title from the Game Maker community.


Top Secret Sneak Peak


During moments of lucidness I have been working on an unnamed super top secret project. Well, it's unnamed at any rate. So here's a little screenie or two that gives you a basic idea of what it looks like and how it might play.


Initial focus has been on the visual style of the game rather than mechanics. I am creating this game as much for the artwork as I am creating the artwork for the game (not dissimilar from Nifflas' approach). Be advised these are very early screens, and I imagine the finished product will be somewhat different. Perhaps even a lot different. Who knows.

In the meantime, I'll also be finishing off a few items for Thruster. I expect it will be released any day now.


More Love for the Dreamcast


With Japanese companies still putting out shooters for the Dreamcast, the scene is still pulsating with life. This year we've seen three new shmup releases already! February brought us Last Hope and Trigger Heart Exelica. This month, Karous has been released (art above from CCC). Thanks to these new titles, Dreamcast units are selling out in Japan.

Ah my beloved Dreamcast. You may have been seriously wounded, but your soul still burns! That's also why I recently downloaded the cool "new" Sandman Demo Collection from the awesome DC Evolution, as well as Quake DC 10th Anniversary Edition. Both images are good quality releases, and are easily burned with BootDreams (a must have for DC homebrew).

As you might recall from a previous post, I was going through a lot of frustration when trying to get all the homebrew apps to work on my DC some time ago. Each one seemed to be a different image format, and few were even bootable (with or without my Utopia Boot CD). Eventually I did find BootDreams, which makes living life on the Dreamcast a walk in swirly clouds.



So here I was, with two new shiny Dreamcast discs ready to go. I went through every demo on the Sandman Collection, and was pleasantly surprised by several of them. My favorite demos would have to be the ones for BlockSmash (a Lumines clone!), a shmup called Drill with very nice artwork, and the infamous Noiz2SA which I love so very very much. That is not to say that the rest of the demos were not good, but many of them I had played previous to their appearance in this collection.



The other nice addition to my DC homebrew library, QuakeDC 10th Anniversary Edition, pleasantly surprised me when it came up on the screen. I had played it on my Zodiac a bit and it is of course a good game. However, this new version was somewhat different. The impressive list of features givew you an idea how different, and it shows just how much the folks at Titaniun Studios have polished this old classic. I must admit that the improved graphics make Quake look almost as good as Quake III: Arena for the Dreamcast. So that's yet another homebrew title with the qualities of a commercial release.

The Dreamcast refuses to die, and that makes me all too happy. It also makes me agree with Kotaku, in that Sega should get back into the hardware market and just make some more Dreamcasts for us, because we'll buy them!


Art Games: A Brief Intro


For probably as long as I can remember, I have considered games to be art. Few people whom I know have been able to swallow this notion when I tried to force it on them. Those who know me might be familiar with my frustration in this area. Luckily, I am not alone in believing that games are art. Not just that they contain art, but that they are art in themselves.

In 2005, Danish run Artifical began a series which I was all too happy to see. Kristine Ploug started off the Art Games special which has been added to up until January 2006. It would appear that my European brethren have been more eager to accept my ideas than folks this side of the Atlantic, and they don't even realize it.


Not to worry. American game enthusiasts and developers are also following suit. At about the same time that Artificial posted their final article on Art Games, Jonathan Blow released a "prototype" called Raspberry. Blow's foray into this area was certainly interesting in terms of concept. Yet, perhaps due to it's prototypical nature, not always pleasant. Of course many good games aren't necessarily pleasant either.


He did us a great service in stoking the fire of the art game scene however, and inspired Rod Humble to bring The Marriage to fruition. This game has been garnering a fair amount of exposure, with posts on Indygamer and TIGSource preceding my mention of it. So yes, I suppose I'm a bit late there.

The point is that art games are alive and kicking. It also seems that, to truly bring artistic meaning to their games, indy devs are taking the low-fi route in a proverbial going-back-to-the-drawing-board. They are discarding the "unnecessary" elements of fancy visuals and sound in order to bring us something less tangible. Rod Humble's game may be difficult to comprehend, especially if you have not been married, and so he does offer his thoughts to ease your confusion regarding his new digital creation.

For those with matrimonial experience, The Marriage might be all too familiar in an intuitive way. Especially if you are trying to have your marriage be successful! So thank you Rod Humble. Thank you for conveying emotions, as well as other things less suitable to verbal expression, in a game.

Humble also points to his article for The Escapist which sheds further light on his theories. In lieu of his writings I too must emphasize that art games, and all good games, begin with the right concept. Rules make up this concept, which in turn allows us to create something. Anything. The concept can materialize before us in the form of music, a painting, film, or written word. And yes, oh ye unbelievers, concepts can be realized as games too. Not for the sake of driving profits, but only to exist as art in itself. Or, if you prefer, as games in themselves.

Update: Joystiq just jumped onto The Marriage bandwagon with a very positive post. In addition, Rod Humble himself has made an appearance in the comments section.


On Another Note...

Recently, my co-conspirator and Highly Significant Other has been getting into some old-school, indy games. Normally, things such as this usually don't effect me greatly, since this is par for the course, and I am quite used to game binges between the two of us. However, sometimes it's difficult to tune out the Sound FX of various bleeps and bloops, and while some are very jarring (aka, Record of Lodoss War for DC: The Metal Boots of Echoes, zomg), I was pleasantly surprised by the noises I heard from two games in particular. Cave Story and Within a Deep Forest have excellent soundtracks, and I confess that I listened to both of them for hours on end while He was at work. This is not an easy feat for a game to accomplish, since I tend to have the attention span of a two-year-old baby, and get easily annoyed if I don't get my nappies promptly at 2 p.m. sharp... Thanks, hubby, for exposing my ears to new coolness! The music of both remind me vaguely of trance techno. Good times! ;)


Tormishire


Recently mentioned at Indygamer and announced on their forums, "Tormishire is an action RPG for Windows featuring a procedurally generated story." Now I've seen procedurally generated graphics, but when it comes to story I'm bit uncertain as to how that would come about.

Nevertheless, judging from the artwork we're looking at a Within a Deep Forest meets Cave Story experience. And anything that may take its inspiration from those two games is exciting in my book.

The release is still a ways off, sometime this coming winter (2007/2008), but I think I'll be keeping an eye on it. Check out the Tormishire website for additional cool concept art and screenshots.


Thruster for PC Release Imminent


For the last several months, since before Christmas, Vilmos has been working hard on a lovely game called Thruster. I was given the opportunity to help him with this project and I think it has turned out quite nicely. The game was initially released on December 25, but it was exclusive to the Zodiac. That was the goal. It was also our goal to enter it into the Dream Coding Grand Prix 2006 competition, yet that contest, as I have posted previously, was canceled.


Now, thanks again to Vilmos, Thruster is bound for the PC and is already out for the GP2X. His work encompasses all of the coding, while I provided the background graphics, sound effects, and music soundtrack. Title screen was created by Mrpropre. Here are some additional features of the game...

  • Three different game modes.
  • Two difficulty levels.
  • High score tables with replay.
  • Beautiful backgrounds.
  • Original Soundtrack.
  • Ability to add your own music.
  • More than 2K particles in play at once.

Thruster's concept comes from an older grayscale game for the PC called Spout by Kuni. As such, it is an arcade style game with really just one objective: to go up, as high as possible. Obstacles will block your path, and your only weapon against them is the plume of thrust which also propels you upward. Spout has been classified by some as a caveflier, so I suppose you could call Thruster that as well.

I admit that my first encounters with Spout left me disinterested. Yet after Thruster became playable, I got hooked on it and played it for months. The game does become quite fun, so just give it a good ten minutes before making up your mind.


The overall style of Thruster, in terms of graphics and sound, was inspired heavily by Rez. My choice of sound effects specifically steered clear of actual explosions, etc. Instead I wanted to pick instruments, similarly to what was done in Rez. Along with that, a more ambient soundtrack was created. Put all of that together with geometric vector graphics and the appropriate background images, and I think we have managed to create a pleasant atmosphere with this game.


I'm providing a few desktop wallpapers for Thruster here, which I hope you will enjoy (just click on the images above for full view). The game will be released very soon, though I cannot tell you a specific date. Rest assured I will be letting everyone know when it happens. Until then, enjoy the artwork and keep checking back.

Update: Thanks go to Indygamer for mentioning this preview up on their site in a news post, along with giving props to my Curly Brace wall. I'm honored.


Rise of the "Budgetarians"


Over the last several months, the hubby and I have become accidental vegetarians. You might even call us "budgetarians:" vegetarians for economic reasons. This is not to say, if you offer us a rib-eye steak, cooked well please, we won't eat it. We most likely will grin from ear to ear, and snarf it down like crazed voles. We've become veggies because beans and tofu are much more economical than their bloody and delicious counterpart. For approximately $50, we've got enough food and most importantly, protein, to sustain us for yet another month. I think if we didn't splurge on the ice cream so much, it would be even less...

Most people are a-feared to cook beans, tofu and other strange things, because they don't know how. Thankfully, there is a world of information at everyone's fingertips, called the Internet. It's not just for pr0n, peeps! If there is something you don't know how to do, there's a very high chance you'll find instructions online. I love internet (and pr0n). Why be hungry...eat beans, and be flatulent.


Checking over my receipt for the last grocery bill, I see that I bought approximately 9 lbs. of various sorts of beans, lentils, and peas, for about $6, possibly less. One sack creates many meals for me and my husband, and we do eat a lot. We also get a good amount of tofu, and by varying our recipes, it doesn't seem like we're eating the same thing day after day. Vegetables, in particular, make each meal seem unique. Last night, I made veggie burgers ( which were a tiny bit 'strange', but still quite tasty) and home-fries, and we stuffed our faces very happily. I was so tempted to get a package of sausages at the store last time, but when I read the list of ingredients and saw it contained MSG, it dampened my spirits. MSG is a carcinogenic salty substance found in many soups, spiced meats, and other things salty. It's not a good thing to eat. It's in those packets of ramen, so don't eat the spice packets (that you college kids).

The secret to cooking beans is giving them a good soak. Leave them all in a big pot overnight on your stove, filled almost to the brim with water. They'll take about half an hour to cook, if you do this. Otherwise, you're going to be watching your beans cook for hours, not to mention what your intestines will say after eating unsoaked beans. And that's no fun.

I thought I would post some of these recipes, like for the veggie burgers, for they were tasty.


Veggie Burgers:

Soak a bag of lentils for several hours or overnight. Drain them, and add enough water so they move around freely. Bring those small legumes of deliciousness to a boil on your stove, and simmer for about 25 minutes, so they get nice and squishy. Drain, and go do something else for about 20 or thirty minutes, because you'll be working hard later mixing lentils.

When they are done, mix them up with several cloves of garlic, onion, and any other vegetables that look tasty to you. Season with salt and pepper, and anything else that you like. Spicy flavors work very well, like paprica, curry, and chili powder. Mix in one beaten egg, some oatmeal, flour, or soft shredded breadcrumbs to bind everything together. It should feel like stiff cookie dough. Fry them up in butter, yum yum. I recommend letting them fry slowly on low heat, and to flip as little as possible, because mine had a tendency to break off chunks while they were moist inside (alternatively you could bake them in the oven). Serve it like a burger, or however you like. They were awesome with spicy mustard and tomato last night. :D


Frijoles Refritos:

Those are tasty tasty good things, and they seem to grow tastier when sitting in the fridge. Presoak a bag of Pinto beans overnight or for at least three hours. Drain the water & wash; refill with water, bring to a boil on the stove, and simmer for 30-ish minutes or until the bean is cooked. (I like mine to be still slightly parboiled, since they'll undergo another cooking session soon.) Let the beans rest for awhile in the open air, to help dry out the liquid after you strain the water from the cooked beanarinos. Meanwhile, chop up several onions, garlic, and whatever other vegetables that you think taste good in Refried Beans. I recommend carrots, celery, avocado, chilies, and oddly enough, Soy sauce. Fry all this stuff up in your biggest fryin' pan with as many of the beans as you can comfortably work. Get them nice and mushy, then add more delicious beans. Texas Pete, ftw! Cheese is nice at this point, as is butter or oil to help keep things moving along. When they are nicely mushed, add the remainder of the beans and give it a gentle stir or two or three. Serve with whatever you like... I recommend tortillas, cheese, veggies, sour cream, salsa... mmm and now I'm hungry. Curse you, Guacamole!



There are simple strategies for cooking tofu as well. Main thing is to drain it well (at least fifteen minutes); the longer you drain it the better though. Afterwards you can bake it in the oven, fry it up in a pan, or even deep fry it. You can serve it up with some sauce, like BBQ sauce or sweet and sour. Or if you prefer you can chop up tofu and add it to another dish like omelets, burritos, etc. It's versatile stuff, so don't shy away from it.

Basically, just because money is tight that doesn't mean you can't eat healthy food. Protein is important, and resulting to ramen and canned junk is not the best recourse. You'll find that non-canned legumes are cheaper, and a 20 lbs. bag of rice comes out to nearly half the price by volume than bags under 10 lbs. So stock up on dry goods, and fresh veggies, and you'll be sparing your wallet along with your stomach from undue stress.


Within A Deep Forest


I recently had the good fortune to spend some time with Within a Deep Forest. I'd like to thank the good folks over at Indygamer for bringing my attention to it, and if you're curious after reading this you can get the game here.


The game sports beautifully clean design, well thought out mechanics, and a wonderful soundtrack which all culminates in an ambiance and atmosphere reminiscent of games like Super Metroid. Still, Within a Deep Forest relies heavily on physics and the mastery of many sequences to progress, lending it that proper retro feel. And by "proper retro feel" I mean the love and hate relationships that I had with games of yesteryear.


There were moments when the game drove me a little crazy, especially since the stages increased in difficulty throughout the game. Amazingly enough I did manage to finish it though. But I remember swearing a few times in the final area called "Dr. Cliche's Underwater Laboratory." I vote that we rename the stage to something more fitting, like "Dr. Sadisto's Torture Chamber."


Other than that it was great! Seriously though, frustration aside, the game's polished visuals, gameplay, and music make this a worthwhile play. Some of you out there will surely be better at these types of games than me and may find it much less of a challenge. Either way, you should do yourself the favor of eperiencing Within a Deep Forest. I also suggest you grab the mod music from within the game's directory and listen to it for its shear enjoyment (Winamp and TCMP can play the files with proper plugins).


Workers Against Abuse, Unite!

image from edgarende.com

I am always surprised by employers. It's a funny thing, but for some reason when you agree to work for them, there also seems to be some sort of implied agreement to become their slave. I don't really understand this phenomenon, but it appears to be more widespread than bad breath.

When you go to a business, and pay them money for their services, you try to maintain a generally amicable relationship. Makes sense, since they are providing you with something you need and you do the same for them. So why do such courtesies no longer apply in the employee/employer relationship? It's a very similar scenario after all. Money is paid to the individual for services which the employer needs. Yet the requirement to maintain that amicable relationship appears to take a back seat to personal interests.

The reason I write this is because I had another unpleasant episode at one of my current jobs. I haven't been working there for all that long, so my relationship with my coworkers has barely begun to develop. Just the other day I apparently did something wrong without knowing it. My supervisor swore at me for doing so, and I decided to call him on it.

In a calm manner I approached him and said, "I just want you to know that if you want to tell me something I can understand it without you swearing at me." Well, he didn't like that too much. I was told I was being "too sensitive," that he wasn't going to change the way he talks for me or "tip-toe around [me]." He tried to take the superiority road by offering some older-and-wiser words, how my being too sensitive would not serve me in the professional world. He also said I should not be there if I couldn't deal with it. But it was the last thing he said which really summed his thoughts up quite nicely: "Let me put it this way. I don't care."

Older and wiser indeed. I thought this was a rather significantly sized soap box to climb up on, all because I told him it wasn't necessary to swear in order to communicate with me. So, for future reference to everyone out there, telling someone you "don't care" isn't exactly how you demonstrate your years of acquired wisdom. Not to mention that excessive profanity makes your IQ plummet like your company's profits in the face of outsourcing to China.

I think maybe when I start new jobs from now on, along with having to fill out and sign a bunch of paperwork for them, I'll require my employers to sign an agreement to treat me like a human being. Maybe I'll create a new legal precedent allowing employees to sue for psychologically abusive treatment.

Maybe it's my rotten luck that I end up working for jerks all the time. Or maybe I am too sensitive. It's possible, just as much as I could argue for the opposite possibility that the other guy is an insensitive prick. A little digging in this direction has turned up some interesting information.

The Bully Online website makes information available regarding popular myths and stereotypes regarding bullying in the workplace as collected by the UK National Workplace Bullying Advice Line, and here is what they have to say about "sensitivity."

Victims are sensitive / oversensitive
Sensitivity comprises a constellation of values to be cherished and nurtured, including empathy, respect, tolerance, dignity, honour, consideration and gentility. Anyone who is not sensitive is insensitive. Targets have an instinctive ability to detect malicious intent which is often labelled by those who lack this ability as "being oversensitive". Bullies are callously insensitive and indifferent to the needs of others and when called upon to share or address the needs and concerns of others respond with impatience, irritability and aggression.

Maybe I'll give this information to my employer at some point. Because I don't know how much I would have to be paid in order to put up with that kind of nonsense, but I know I'm not being paid enough for it now. I don't anticipate to stay there much longer, and maybe I really will give this to them before leaving.

No one should stand for that kind of treatment, regardless of how sensitive a person they are. When your employer tells you that he "should hire Mexicans because they work harder," it's time to get out of there and visit JobVent.com.


Help Me Dr. Mario!


It's just one thing after another this spring. First, I get depressed, then I get slammed with work, and now the dang flu! I've been in bed for about a week being awfully sick. Some days I would watch TV, which wasn't much better than the normal headaches I was having. Curse you oh brain wrenching TV!

Thankfully I had Dr. Mario to help me through this. He's always there when you need him. Oh wait, that wasn't Dr. Mario, that was my sweet wifey wife. Thanks honey. You've been the best. I'll have to buy you that nurse's outfit for next time.

I'm back on me feet now, though still unsteady, but I'm just about out of the woods I think. Hopefully that'll do it for a good long while.